FAREWELL TO ICEs
HELLO TO EVs
From Internal Combustion Engines, back to Electric Vehicles.
Gas or Battery? Do TESLAs burst into flames? Does cold cripple EVs? Will Elon Musk succeed?
A row between two elderly gentlemen. John is Pro-Trump & Brexit. Noel is Anti-Trump & Brexit.
Read this article from the bottom up to the top. John started by claiming petrol & diesel vehicles are superior to electric vehicles. Noel says the future is electric. John's hero Donald Trump is legislating for coal-driven-cars. Noel thinks Donald is demented.
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| MAY 2018 - ROYAL WEDDING ELECTRIC-E-TYPE |
The weight facts; without John's BIG-OIL Trumpian spin and misdirection:
Ford Mondeo Sedan
Mid-size
car
Battery: 1.4 kWh lithium-ion
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Tesla Model 3
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Length
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184.8 in (4,690 mm)
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Width
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76.1 in (1,930 mm)
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Height
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56.8 in (1,440 mm)
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Curb weight
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Standard: 3,549 lb (1,610 kg) Long-range: 3,814 lb (1,730
kg)
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18 more rows
Tesla Model 3 - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
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1958 - 2.4 JAGUAR - 130 MPH - 25 MPG
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On 18 May 2018, Noel wrote:
John – I think you
have been taking lessons in The Donald Trump School of Spinduggery. Did
you know he had the largest fan-crowd ever at his inauguration ceremony. Fact! – Get real! - Noel
Frequency of vehicle fires
Fire incidents in
highway capable vehicles occur relatively frequently. A study of U.S. fires
from 2003-2007 finds that fire departments respond to an average of 287,000
vehicle fires per year, or 30 vehicle fires per hour, and that vehicles were
involved in 17% of all reported U.S. fires.[7] The
study also finds that roughly 90 highway vehicle fires and 0.15 highway vehicle
fire deaths were reported per billion miles driven.
Executive Summary – Buses on fire
During the five-year
period of 1999-2003, U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of
2,210 bus or school bus fires per year. These fires caused an estimated annual
average of three civilian deaths, 30 civilian injuries, and $24.2 million in
direct property damage per year. In 1999-2003, bus or school bus fires
accounted for 1% of the total reported vehicle fires, 1% of the vehicle fire
deaths, 2% of the vehicle fire injuries, and 2% of the vehicle fire property
damage. On average, six bus or school bus fires were reported every day.
In the past two
months, three Tesla Motors Model S electric cars have caught fire
after their lithium-ion battery packs were damaged. Last week the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it would investigate whether Tesla’s
Model S needs to be modified to prevent further fires.
Burn out: The front end of a
Tesla Model S was consumed in flames after its battery was damaged.
In two cases, the
cars ran over large metal objects at highway speed; the third car hit a
concrete wall. No one was hurt:
Noel
John writes:
The point has been in the media quite a bit
the last year
or so that in an accident where the battery
pack is damaged they do burst into flames.
The worst point is that this is very difficult
nay impossible to extinguish and therefore left to burn itself out.
At least with petrol it can be put out and
diesel is not very flammable. To the extent that if one throws a lit match into
a bowl of diesel it goes out. Petrol is more flammable and would catch
fire.
It is one thing disbelieving what I have said but all the points I have made are supported by facts.
It is one thing disbelieving what I have said but all the points I have made are supported by facts.
John
18 May 2018, Noel wrote:
MacKay concluded “other lithium-free battery technologies such as
zinc-air re-chargeables are being developed [www.revolttechnology.com]. I think the electric car is a
goer! “
In the same period, how many ICE cars and vans burst into flames?
How many tyres have to wear 1/4 inch to release particulates
equivalent to one gallon of petrol or diesel?
Cold weather – Now whose being negative? The advances in battery
power are exponential. Even Murdoch’s SUN says so:
SUN SAYS “But Tesla has the
answer - heating up your battery via the app before you set off while it's
still plugged in, according to reports by Electrek.
A warm battery will have a
much better chance of returning the full range on offer.
The electric car pioneers
recently started showing how the cold is affecting your range.
And now with an update
supplied by wifi, it'll fix it with a battery pre-heating feature on the app.
Tesla previously offered a
cabin heating option and many other electric cars have this system, too.
And while Nissan offered
the battery pre-heating function on its old Leaf with the "Cold Weather
Package", there's no option to spec this on the new model.
Petrol and diesels aren't
immune to cold weather hurting efficiency it's just you've normally got more in
reserve than the smaller ranges of electric vehicles.”
Noel writes:
John – have you ever heard of frozen fuel pipes?
7 Jan 2014 - The
equipment used to pump jet fuel can freeze, so
refueling planes gets tricky. That slowed American Airlines
operations at O'Hare Monday
23 Jan 2018 - A frozen
fuel line is one of winter's worst driving frustrations — but
fortunately, it's possible to prepare your car so that you
don't have to be
On all comparisons –
EVs are better. Farewell to the internal-combustion engine. But it will be a
slow death. - Noel
1.
26 Feb 2018 - German cities can ban the
most heavily polluting diesel cars from their streets ...
France and Britain will ban new petrol and diesel cars by
2040.
www.alphr.com › Environment
1.
Rome is banning
diesel cars in its city centre by 2024 if its mayor's
plans come to pass. Virginia Raggi announced the decision via Facebook, stating
that "if we ...
1.
The news that Oxford plans
to ban all petrol and diesel vehicles from
the city centre by the end of the decade is just the latest
example of the UK authorities
From: John 17 May 2018 18:11
Subject: Re: New report suggests broad adoption of electric vehicles may actually increase air pollution | Watts Up With That?
Subject: Re: New report suggests broad adoption of electric vehicles may actually increase air pollution | Watts Up With That?
Noel
According to his (MacKay’s) own analysis an EV
is no better than a good IC car. 100g co2 per km.
He says LI batteries are safe in an accident.
This is rubbish. There have been several high profile
cases of Tesla battery packs catching fire in
an accident and having to be left to burn themselves
out as the emergency fire service could not
put them out. Very severe fires.
He fails to tell you that the range of an EV
is substantially reduced in cold weather. Some
Tesla owners report range reduced to 90 miles
in cold weather. That is from circa 250 quoted.
And he does not address properly the issue of
having to scrap an EV at 10 years old because
it needs new batteries.
The embedded
emissions in a new car are very considerable.
John
17 May 2018, Noel wrote:
John – As you say
“it is complicated”. But EVs are many times less polluting than ICE’s.
This is part of the
issues - from David MacKay:
Some questions about electric vehicles
You’ve shown that electric cars are more energy-efficient than
fossil cars.
But are they better if our objective is to reduce CO2 emissions, and the
electricity is still generated by fossil power-stations?
This is quite an easy calculation to do. Assume the electric
vehicle’s
energy cost is 20 kWh(e) per 100 km. (I think 15 kWh(e) per 100 km
is perfectly
possible, but let’s play sceptical in this calculation.) If grid
electricity
has a carbon footprint of 500 g per kWh(e) then the effective
emissions of
this vehicle are 100 gCO2 per km, which is as good as
the best fossil cars
(figure 20.9). So I conclude that switching to electric cars is already
a good
idea, even before we green our electricity supply.
Electric cars, like fossil cars, have costs of both manufacture and
use.
Electric cars may cost less to use, but if the batteries don’t last
very long,
shouldn’t you pay more attention to the manufacturing cost?
Yes, that’s a good point. My transport diagram shows only the use
cost.
If electric cars require new batteries every few years, my numbers
may be
underestimates. The batteries in a Prius are expected to last just
10 years,
and a new set would cost £3500. Will anyone want to own a 10-year
old
Prius and pay that cost? It could be predicted that most Priuses
will be
junked at age 10 years. This is certainly a concern for all
electric vehicles
that have batteries. I guess I’m optimistic that, as we switch to
electric
vehicles, battery technology is going to improve.
I live in a hot place. How could I drive an electric car? I demand
powerhungry
air-conditioning!
There’s an elegant fix for this demand: fit 4m2 of photovoltaic
panels
in the upward-facing surfaces of the electric car. If the
air-conditioning is
needed, the sun must surely be shining. 20%-efficient panels will
generate
up to 800W, which is enough to power a car’s air-conditioning. The
panels might even make a useful contribution to charging the car
when
it’s parked, too. Solar-powered vehicle cooling was included in a
Mazda
in 1993; the solar cells were embedded in the glass sunroof.
Copyright David JC MacKay 2009. This electronic copy is provided,
free, for personal use only. See www.withouthotair.com.
132 Sustainable Energy – without the hot air
I live in a cold place. How could I drive an electric car? I demand
powerhungry
heating!
The motor of an electric vehicle, when it’s running, will on
average use
something like 10 kW, with an efficiency of 90–95%. Some of the
lost power,
the other 5–10%, will be dissipated as heat in the motor. Perhaps
electric
cars that are going to be used in cold places can be carefully
designed so
that this motor-generated heat, which might amount to 250 or 500W,
can
be piped from the motor into the car. That much power would provide
some significant windscreen demisting or body-warming.
Are lithium-ion batteries safe in an accident?
Some lithium-ion batteries are unsafe when short-circuited or
overheated,
but the battery industry is now producing safer batteries such as
lithium phosphate. There’s a fun safety video at www.valence.com.
Is there enough lithium to make all the batteries for a huge fleet
of electric
cars?
World lithium reserves are estimated to be 9.5 million tons in ore
deposits
(p175). A lithium-ion battery is 3% lithium. If we assume each
vehicle has a 200 kg battery, then we need 6 kg of lithium per
vehicle. So
the estimated reserves in ore deposits are enough to make the
batteries for
1.6 billion vehicles. That’s more than the number of cars in the
world today
(roughly 1 billion) – but not much more, so the amount of lithium
may be
a concern, especially when we take into account the competing
ambitions
of the nuclear fusion posse (Chapter 24) to guzzle lithium in their
reactors.
There’s many thousands times more lithium in sea water, so perhaps
the
oceans will provide a useful backup. However, lithium specialist R.
Keith
Evans says “concerns regarding lithium availability for hybrid or
electric
vehicle batteries or other foreseeable applications are unfounded.”
And
anyway, other lithium-free battery technologies such as zinc-air
rechargeables
are being developed [www.revolttechnology.com].
I think the electric
car is a goer!
So says a Professor
of Energy
Noel
From: John 17 May 2018
Subject: Electric vehicles may actually increase air pollution | Watts Up With That?
Subject: Electric vehicles may actually increase air pollution | Watts Up With That?
Thing is, consult recent research and
published material.
The whole EV versus IC engine thing is very
much more complex than usually presented.
EV cars are 25% heavier than IC engined cars.
That is well known.
Even a tank of petrol or diesel weighs less
than one male passenger.
It is true about the emissions from brakes and
tyres being significant.
And it is true about EVs producing more of
them.
The battery pack in a Tesla model S P85 or
P100 weighs from 540 to 560 kg. More than
half a ton.
80 litres of petrol weighs 58kg. And by
definition tanks are full only for a short time.
As said earlier, you will find that EV cars
are typically 25% heavier than IC cars.
Noel it’s just much more complex.
John
17 May 2018, Noel wrote:
John – WEIGHT - have
you included full tanks of fuel? Every travelling EC will simply replace an
ICE. This tyre wear must be fearsome to outweigh saving millions of tonnes of
exhaust fumes. It makes no sense. - Noel
From: John Sent: 17 May 2018
Subject: Watts Up With That?
Subject: Watts Up With That?
Yes they do. EV cars are heavier,
typically 25% heavier and the particles from the tyres and brakes are small and
in the size range that are ingested by humans.
McKay
may be clever but he did not see into the future and he did not know about
Adblue and ACCT, he did not know how clean IC engines could become.The point is that these issues are never as simple as they are usually presented, they are far more complex.
John
From: Noel Sent: 17 May 2018
To: John
To: John
Isaac Newton’s
gravity is 350 years old. Still valid science. MacKay was world renowned.
Are you saying that
EV tyres wear more than ICE tyres? On what evidence? So much more as to outdo
the zero emissions?
From:
John Sent: 16 May 2018
Noel.
The book is more than 10 years out of date.
It does not reflect the position today.
Please reread my email. The information in it
is current. As of this week this year.
And do please address the non-power unit
emissions which are worse for electric cars.
John
16 May 2018, Noel wrote:
No street level
pollution. Breathe easy. Banish asthma.
“The well-to-wheel
environmental impact of EVs and PHEVs is largely determined by the type of
electricity production used to charge the batteries. If electricity is produced
from lignite or coal, well-to-wheel CO2 emissions are typically higher than or
equal to the emissions of a comparable ICE car. When the electricity comes from
gas-fired power plants, emissions are significantly lower. Electricity from
renewable sources, such as wind, solar or hydro energy, would result in zero
CO2 emissions per kilometre.”
One of the most
authoritative studies is Prof. MacKay’s Energy Without the hot air. And it is
free on-line – And it isn’t a closet BIG-OIL old vehicles “study”. You would
enjoy it.
Sustainable Energy - without
the hot air. Contents
From: John
Sent: 16 May 2018
To: Noel
NoelTo: Noel
Have you carefully considered the true facts and the science behind these claims.
It is a scientific true fact that today's new diesel engines, with the advent of Adblue, are very clean.
Add to this the breakthrough made at Loughborough Univeristy to reduce NOX emissions by 99%, such technology able to be in vehicles in 2 to 3 years, and the clean diesel with Adblue today is so clean with ACCT tomorrow that the NOX may not be measurable.
Add to that the fact that a large part of a vehicle's particulate emissions are from the tyres and brakes and you see that this persists regardless of power source. In fact electric vehicles are worse than IC engined vehicles here because they are heavier, around 25% heavier, and this corresponds to 25% more non power unit pariculates in the size range that are ingested by humans. The Guardian ran an article on this.
So the whole thing is much more complex than saying get rid of internal combustion engined vehicles and all go elctric. It is just not as simple as that.
Governments love simple slogans but as usual the truth is far more complex.
And a tirade is the least scientific way to address these issues.
John
From: Noel Sent:
16 May 2018
John - Utter rubbish from yet another far-right, low-brow, bunch of
luddites. How much is big-oil and old-engines paying this idiot? Why do you
read this crap? - Noel
"Sound too good to be true? That's because it is, according to a new report published by the Manhattan Institute. Dr. Jonathan Lesser, the author of "Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicles," argues that critics of the internal combustion engine fail to consider just how clean and efficient new cars are."
Funding sources. Foundations which have contributed over $1 million to the Manhattan Institute include the John M. Olin Foundation, Bradley Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Searle Freedom Trust, Smith Richardson Foundation, William E. Simon Foundation, the Claude Lambe Foundation, the Gilder Foundation, the Curry Foundation, and the Jaquelin Hume Foundation.
In 2013, hedge fund managers Cliff Asness, Henry Kravis and Thomas McWilliams all cut ties with the Manhattan Institute due to the group's support of the abolition of defined benefit public pensions
Noel
"Sound too good to be true? That's because it is, according to a new report published by the Manhattan Institute. Dr. Jonathan Lesser, the author of "Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicles," argues that critics of the internal combustion engine fail to consider just how clean and efficient new cars are."
Funding sources. Foundations which have contributed over $1 million to the Manhattan Institute include the John M. Olin Foundation, Bradley Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Searle Freedom Trust, Smith Richardson Foundation, William E. Simon Foundation, the Claude Lambe Foundation, the Gilder Foundation, the Curry Foundation, and the Jaquelin Hume Foundation.
In 2013, hedge fund managers Cliff Asness, Henry Kravis and Thomas McWilliams all cut ties with the Manhattan Institute due to the group's support of the abolition of defined benefit public pensions
Noel
From: John Sent: 15 May 2018
Governments always get it wrong and here is the latest one.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/05/14/n
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From
WORLD SCIENTIFIC and the “let’s dumb it down so these stupid deniers can
understand” it department comes this press release that seems pretty
desperate. At $150 a copy, and u…
|
new-report-suggests-broad-adoption-of-electric-vehicles-may-actually-increase-air-pollition/
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